Groove Survey Results
Three weeks ago, I posted a survey to see how you readers felt about the implementation of the new Rules of Golf as they apply to the changes in the grooves on wedges and irons, which go into effect January 1, 2011. That was triggered by a press release by one small wedge company that stated the company’s decision to continue to make their wedges with current grooves past that date, even though they would be ruled non-conforming by the USGA. The survey was to find out what you guys thought about the rule and what you planned to do about it. The results, to be honest, really surprised me.

We had 215 respondents to the survey, and all but one were aware the rules were changing, so that means the USGA and golf press has done a pretty good job of informing us all of this. Of course, it’s been in the golf news for almost two years now.

The rest of your responses surprised me.

Q. Do you think wedge and iron manufacturers should continue making clubs with the "old" grooves, despite the USGA's ruling?
81% of you said that we should continue making “old” grooves, while only 19% thought we should follow the USGA Rules. That’s pretty interesting to me, as it indicates maybe the USGA isn’t really recognized as the official rule making body for golf. At least not by this group.

Q. Would you buy wedges in the future, even though they are sold as "non-conforming" to the USGA Rules?
Here again, you guys surprised me, but your answers were consistent with the earlier question. 73% of you said you would, and only 27% said you wouldn’t buy non-conforming wedges. Does that mean there is a demand for openly-marketed “non-conforming” equipment? Hot drivers and balls, pendulum putters, etc.? What do you think?

Q. Have you purchased new wedges in the past 12 months to get ahead of the rule?

or

Q. Are you considering purchasing new wedges in the next three months to take advantage of the availability of more spin?
40% of you have already purchased wedges to get ahead of the rule, and another 55% of you are considering doing so in the next few months. That’s probably why this has been one of the best wedge sales years ever in the industry, and looks like a big fall is ahead as well.

Introduction of the NEW EIDOLON Multi-Loft Wedge Line-Up

I don’t use this forum to talk about EIDOLON very much, but you all are my loyal readers, and I want you to be the first to know about what we’re up to. By later today or tomorrow, Saturday, October 9, our website will begin offering our new Multi-Loft Line of V-SOLE wedges. The same outstanding V-SOLE technology, high-spinning grooves and custom-build philosophy we’ve always offered, but with a re-aligned array of lofts to allow us even more custom-build flexibility. We’ve replaced our 52 and 56 degree models with a 51, 54 and 57. Complemented at each end by our 48 and 60, we can now craft any combination of lofts from 47 to 61 degrees into a set of scoring tools that fits any golfer perfectly. We never have to alter a head by more than 1 degree, so we can ensure optimum V-SOLE performance, regardless of what your specific set make-up might be.

You can read more about the new Multi-Loft line on the site tomorrow – www.eidolongolf.com. And my readers can get $10 off any and all wedges during this introduction. Just use Coupon Code “oob10”.

Thanks for your following and support, and I’d like to hear what you all have to say about the survey results and the future for non-conforming equipment.
The Wedge Guy is sponsored by SCOR Golf, where Terry Koehler is President/CEO. He encourages you to submit your questions or topics to be considered for his columns on Tuesdays and Fridays. Each submission automatically enters you to win a SCOR4161 wedge to be given away monthly. Click the button below to submit your question or topic today.


[ comments ]
Kickntrue says:
I agree that these are interesting results- though I think you need to be careful how you "analyze" the answers. 81% say you should continue making the old grooves, but a lot of that could be disdain for the rule and the idea that someone like the USGA could prohibit a manufacturer. The next question does cover that some- but again, I'd be careful not to speculate that it means there is a market for "hot drivers" and such, as I think people there are mostly saying they'd be willing to buy old grooved wedges after Jan 1- something they can legally play until 2024. That's a big difference from an illegal ball or hotfaced driver.
10/8/10
 
rmumph1 says:
I agree Kickntrue, I do not want to buy non-conforming equipment but do want to be able to buy past this year since I can use the equipment until 2024. That is stupid to stop selling something that can be used for another 14 years. I have no idea were my golf game will be in 14 years much less what club I will be hitting. That rule definitely needs to change.
10/8/10
 
MiddleAgedGuy says:
I agree with Kickntrue... judging by the commments of previos posts, most oobers seem to dislike the rules change. This survey is an easy way to register that disapproval. I'm skeptical, however, that a similarly high percentage of oobers (or golfers generally) would physically go out and purchase a wedge known to be nonconforming.
10/8/10
 
Banker85 says:
kick and rmumph hit it on the head. I wouldnt use hot drivers or balls but my beef is the USGA saying they cant even be made after this year but can be played for an additional 14 years.

WedgeGuy, you say its replacing 52 and 56 degree, those are the standard, is replaced not the right word there? did you add the 51, 54, and 57? to the existing line?
10/8/10
 
MiddleAgedGuy says:
A question for the Wedge Guy -- my understanding is that manufacturers may sell square grooves after 1/1/11 and still be conforming, so long as they were *manufactured* before 12/31/10? Have you seen any evidence that manufacturers are stockpiling inventory so they can sell well into 2011? (and if yes... any guesses on how long they'll be available?) Thanks!
10/8/10
 
Kickntrue says:
@MiddleAgedGuy- you are correct, and while I'll also let Wedge Guy jump in, I can tell you from conversations I've been having with "insiders" there is definitely some of this going on where the major companies are offering Dick great deals to buy enough wedges to sell for a long time. I think it's hard to speculate exactly how long they could last (really up to the Dicks and Golf Galaxy's of the world and how many they buy) but my guess is you'll have no trouble buying "old grooves" in 2011. It's a lot tough for a company like Eidolon though- who has no place to offload tons of inventory to major retailers.
10/8/10
 
mjaber says:
I think that the responses are deceptive. This is because the "groove rule" that is in effect for the highest level of player does not effect the average weekend golfer until 2024. I think that a number of people responded the way they did because of this. If the rule is not in effect for play until 2024, why prevent the manufacturers from build the clubs that are within the rules more than 10 years before it goes in to effect?

As far as "hot" drivers... check out Ebay. They're all over the place, and people are spending big money for them.
10/8/10
 
tennesseeboy says:
I played with a guy a few weeks ago who had strong opinions on this topic. I looked at his clubs and he obviously had not cleaned his groves in a very long time. A square grove is only square if it's clean. This rule affects professional level golfer way more than the average golfer. I didn't see the pros struggling with the new groves this year. Most weekend golfers never clean their groves before making a shot, they do not try to put spin on the ball, and they have never cared about groves until this rule change. People just need to chill out about this issue. IT'S NO BIG DEAL.
10/8/10
 
rmumph1 says:
@tennesseeboy-I agree that it will probably not matter to most of us hackers out there. The point is based on non-logical thinking that irritates most of us. Even though the new grooves will not make much of a difference I want to be able to buy the old grooves if I can play them for 14 more years. Don't force me to buy a few now when golf is already an expensive hobby. I save all the time to buy something golf related. Now they are making me decide if I want the old grooves I have to spend it now instead of 3 years from now. A big marketing ploy to spike the sales and it irritates me.
10/8/10
 
Shane1 says:
The bigger question is whether or not reputable golf companies have an obligation to manufacture equipment that adheres to the rules of golf in order to maintain the integrity of the game? I'm all for capitalism and if companies want to tap into the perceived "non-conforming" market, then go ahead and do so. However, I think companies have a responsibility to mark their equipment such that it is easy to identify between conforming and non-conforming without having to be within 6 inches of the object for inspection, e.g. different color club heads vs. a tiny "C-C" inscription on the hosel.
10/8/10
 
Shane1 says:
@ Wedge Guy - Do you have a timeframe for when Eidolon V-sole wedges will be tested by the USGA for groove conformity? I've searched their informational club database for irons/wedges, and can't find any information (even pre-2010 groove rule) regarding Eidolon's products.

www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/index.asp
Wednesday
10/8/10
 
wedgeguy says:
To clarify, as a manufacturer, we cannot sell a club past 12/1/2010 with current grooves and have it sold as "conforming". If that club is sold into retail before year end, the retailer CAN sell it as conforming. Confusing? Absolutely. Police-able? I don't see how. Each manufacturer will have to make their own decisions as to what they will do, i.e. conforming vs. not, but you can bet the retailers will be loaded up with inventory. The other questions is: have we heard the last of this from the USGA? That's anyone's guess.
10/8/10
 
TeT says:
"I don’t use this forum to talk about EIDOLON very much"

do you go back and read your posts.... I would guess that Eidolon is mentioned with a marketing slant in at least 75% of your posts... Not over the top mind you, but its there...

I like your 51° 54° 57° array...
10/8/10
 
birdieXris says:
Terry,

Speaking of grooves, when are the conforming grooves going to: be offered in the oilcan finish (i like my wedges to rust, thanks). AND be listed on the USGA's conforming wedges list. I still have a year or so of practice and competition before i will technically NEED them, but nevertheless, i am still concerned about it.
10/8/10
 
Shane1 says:
wedgeguy: To clarify, as a manufacturer, we cannot sell a club past 12/1/2010 with current grooves and have it sold as "conforming".
__________
Technically, Eidolon's products are non-conforming (currently) if they have never been tested and certified by the USGA, which might be the case according to their informational club database for irons/wedges as a search for "Eidolon" yields zero hits. Just because you manufacture clubs in accordance with the rules of golf does not mean they are "conforming." Only the USGA can make that determination after samples have been submitted for testing. However, if the USGA's database is in error, then I strongly recommend that Eidolon contact them to remedy the situation because it could impact your sales. In fact, I refuse to purchase equipment if it's not on the conforming club & ball lists.
10/8/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
Okay I just have jump in here (for what it’s worth, probably not much but here goes anyway)
Personally I think that many of the 'for and against' opinions on here regarding grooves is much ado about nothing. How many on here are making their living playing golf? I would venture to guess the number is minuscule at best. So playing ‘ the letter of the law’ and ‘I will not purchase’ chest pounding in a bit overdone don’t you think? The group (Oober’s in all) is some 2+million over par!! What suddenly a 18 handicap playing once maybe twice a week is instantly going move to a -4 and join the Nationwide because he has a couple of wedges that are non-conforming? Really?!
Okay I feel better, now go out and enjoy the game!

– LCGolfer64 7.7 handicap and no-where-near being a ‘great’ golfer playing nonconforming wedges…
10/8/10
 
Shane1 says:
@ lcgolfer64 - Yeah, you're right. We should just all cheat when playing golf.... In fact, I'll just go ahead and cheat on my wife and taxes while I'm at it too because what's the point of integrity and honor any more? Whether you're playing golf for a living or just a weekend hacker is irrelevant. Cheating is cheating.
10/8/10
 
AH50 says:
AH50 says:
@Wedgeguy, I think Shane S made a very important statement about Eidolon. Do clarify otherwise we all are 'cheating' playing with Eidolon.
10/8/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
@Shane S
Please tell me your not responding from work...
10/8/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
@Shane S
And also I think that and awfully large 'leap' - cheating on you wife and taxes?
Wow...

@Shane S
And also I think that and awfully large 'leap' - cheating on your wife and taxes? Really?
Wow...

Ever stood within say 45 degrees behind some putting? Responded to some looking for a distance or yardage marker? Called the penalty on yourself or disqualified yourself then did you?
How do you even go back to course?? - Preposterous!
10/8/10
 
tennesseeboy says:
I've said this before on oob but I think it's an important point. The "perception" is that clubs made next year will not be as good as one made this year. Club makers love it because people are buying new wedges thinking this is their last chance to get the good ones. This "perception" will become a problem for the club makers next year as the old wedges on eBay will be "perceived" to be better than the new ones. The golf industry will work very hard to convince all of us that next year's innovative new design is the best ever. Expect to hear statements like this "The USGA is gonna have to look at this new wedge design. It puts way more spin of the ball than the old wedges that they outlawed". It's all mostly hype and the marketing people in the golf industry will change the "perception". They will make you want new wedges way before your old ones become illegal.
10/8/10
 
Banker85 says:
ya shane take a chill pill homie. second that lcgolfer, how the heck is cheating on your wife comparable to someone using a non conforming wedge that has no difference from another wedge besides it was sold after 12/31/10. all this crap makes me want to get a non conforming driver and golf balls. Has anyone ever used a non conforming driver? i would like to see how they differ.
10/8/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
@tennesseeboy
Nicely stated!
10/8/10
 
tennesseeboy says:
@Banker - I got paired up with a guy once who was using a non conforming driver. It was huge. 700cc if I remember correctly. It looked kind of ridiculous but he hit some monster drives with it. It clearly gave him a huge advantage.

He was very annoying and talked the whole time. He told me his entire life story..include the part about cheating on his wife. (I'm not kidding) I'm sure it was just a coincidence. :)
10/8/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
Thanks Banker, again I'm not saying that cheating is okay.
I've called penalties on myself on several occasions this summer while playing casual rounds with friend and pick-up games at the course.

I'm saying that there are forms of arbitrary positions/conditions that either allow one to go out and play a casual with some friends versus playing by the absolute letter of the rule every second of ever playing the game in tournament play. [Heck you've watched the pro's 'bend' it themselves or courses set up to the advantage of not following the rules to the letter - recall Phil's errant tee shots on more than one occasion comes to mind.]

One point of note - they change the rules in every sport to accommodate the conditions and players (amateur) – tee-ball, football, baseball, etc.
So if it’s simply ‘black and white’ and purist-only why do we accept this in other sports?
10/8/10
 
birdieXris says:
"Ever stood within say 45 degrees behind some putting? Responded to some looking for a distance or yardage marker? Called the penalty on yourself or disqualified yourself then did you?"

I would just like to comment that i see this thrown around constantly and it irks me to no end when it happens on the course because someone doesn't know it. Telling someone the yardage, indicating the line to the hole anywhere but the putting green, and information on the rules, position of hazards and position of flagsticks is not considered advice and is not a penalty and can be given by ANYONE.
10/8/10
 
LongTimeAway says:
I think that most folks don't want to cheat at golf with "hot" equipment. However, I don't get how when a club is manufactured should cause it to be legal or illegal. That's what appears to make no sense to many of us. To me, legality should be based on when and where the club is used.

BTW, I bought a "conforming" wedge recently because when I beat a particular person I did not want him to whine. So, he goes out an buys an old groove wedge recently. Haha on me. Needless to say, after his purchase, the poll results did not surprise me.

I like the new wedge loft lineup of 48, 51, 54, 57, and 60, and the reasoning behind the change makes sense.
10/8/10
 
bducharm says:
Here's a prediction - the USGA will back off of the groove rule before the end of year!!! You heard it here first!!!
10/8/10
 
zeg says:
"Ever stood within say 45 degrees behind some putting?..."

Probably, and if you can point me to the rule against this, I'll give you a cookie. A partner or his caddie cannot stand "on or close" the line of play (or putt), but anyone else can stand anywhere they like. birdieXris already covered the rest of the examples---not one is a penalty. But playing a non-conforming wedge is.

Also, like I said in the last thread, the reason for the 14 year period when you can use but not manufacture the wedges is simply to avoid forcing everyone to replace their wedges immediately. This goal would not be achieved if they let manufacture continue until the deadline. If they were just trying to sell wedges, they'd simply make everyone replace their wedges immediately, but they're actually going to a lot of trouble to *avoid* that.
10/9/10
 
zeg says:
@shane s & ah50: not true. A club is conforming if it conforms to the rules, it need not be certified nor reviewed by the USGA to have this status. Whether it is conforming or not is a question of fact, not of paperwork. Competition committees may invoke a condition of competition to require that equipment be listed on the USGA tested equipment list, but unless that is done, any piece of equipment that in actual fact conforms to the rules is 100% legal.
10/9/10
 
tiger-tiger says:
whats so surprising about these results ? most folks here are recreational golfers and those can still play old grooves til 2024 officially. those who participate in USGA or R&A am events can do the same til 2014. if you play and practice fairly regularly how long your wedges gonna hold til they are all beaten up and you have to replace them ? if you buy them now certainly before 2014 even if you are lazy. so whats the point for non pro golfers to buy anything with new grooves today ?
10/9/10
 
Shane1 says:
zeg says:
@shane s & ah50: not true. A club is conforming if it conforms to the rules, it need not be certified nor reviewed by the USGA to have this status. Whether it is conforming or not is a question of fact, not of paperwork. Competition committees may invoke a condition of competition to require that equipment be listed on the USGA tested equipment list, but unless that is done, any piece of equipment that in actual fact conforms to the rules is 100% legal.
_______
Absolutely false! From the USGA's web site:

"In order to state that golf equipment intended to be used during the stipulated round conforms to the Rules of Golf or is permitted under the Rules of Golf, equipment designers and manufacturers must submit the equipment to the USGA Research and Test Center in Far Hills, New Jersey for evaluation and receive an official conformance determination permitting the designer or manufacturer to make such a statement."

www.usga.org/equipment/testing/Getting-Equipment
10/9/10
 
Shane1 says:
@ lcgolfer64 - If I am playing a stipulated round of golf, then yes, I abide by every single rule. Everything you listed in your prior statement (45 degs, yardage info, etc.) are not against the rules of golf as others have already stated. Additionally, I've never put myself in a position that would force me (or others) to DQ myself from an event, and yes, I do call penalty strokes against myself even if no one is watching. However, I don't always play stipulated rounds of golf, e.g. I may play 9 holes with my instructor to work on course management, how to handle complex/unusual lies, etc where I would hit multiple shots from varying locations. Is this against the rules? Absolutely not because I'm not playing a stipulated round of golf. Furthermore, cheating in games/sports is a reflection of your character, which means more than likely you're going to cheat in other areas of your life.
10/9/10
 
AH50 says:
AH50 says:
I think Shane and me are trying to get the WG to clarify Eidolon's conformity with the relevant Authorities. I think TWG needs to come up with a statement pertaining to Shane's queries.
10/9/10
 
twood says:
@TeT - all this guy does is mask marketing for his wedges with "advice" and "Opinion polls". I really wish oob would ditch him. His act is OLD!
10/9/10
 
tiger-tiger says:
twood, nobody makes you buy his products or read his articles. see all the ads on this site ? thats how it works. ditch them and it will be gone before long. if you cant separate marketing messages from the rest of it its your problem.
10/9/10
 
Banker85 says:
ya, lay off the Wedge Guy, he gives away free wedges and free advice! what the F is wrong with that? so what if he rarely and i read daily so ya rarely (maybe some hidden marketing) markets EIDOLON wedges... I got one and freaking love it. so there is some free marketing from a real life user. Hey Shane S i still think you need a chill pill, ie xnanx
10/9/10
 
Shane1 says:
@Banker85 - still waiting to hear back from Eidolon / TGW for my free wedge from two weeks ago. Nadda...zip. Besides, why would I pay ~$130 for a wedge that may be non-conforming when I can spend $100 on one that is conforming? Don't get me wrong, I think the v-sole is a great idea, but it doesn't do me any good if I can't use it according to the rules of golf. Also, I'm pretty chilled already....no need for drugs when the wife provides all the relaxation I need. ;)
10/9/10
 
stedar says:
TWG is a great read. I've learnt a lot from his articles, as my short game has always been a challenge.
Long live TWG!!!
10/10/10
 
BigDoctorJ says:
I would buy anything that help me play better. I would not conform to USGA rules unless I was playing in an official tournament or something. Which, for the average Joe Shmoe, doesn't happen often, if at all. That being said, in my day to day playing I would love to have a driver that fixed all my faults, or a wedge that performed the best that is possible, or a putter that rolled them all in. I'm a sucker for better scores with less practice LOL
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
@ BigDoctorJ - Do you post scores at your local golf course/club in order to maintain a handicap? If so, then you are cheating if you're using non-conforming equipment, or ignoring the rules of golf during your round. The rules of golf don't just apply to pros or amateurs competing in tournaments, but to everyone when playing a stipulated round of golf. However, as evident from your post, it wouldn't matter because you're a hacker vs. a golfer. Why allow technology to make up for your lack of golfing skills vs. putting in the time and effort to improve your swing and course management? Are you truly that lazy, or just incapable of learning? On a final note, why not go visit a public basketball court in Fresno and join a pick up game. I'm sure your peers wouldn't mind it if you ignored traveling and double dribble violations when you got the ball. However, I wouldn't advise trying that in LA.....
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
Here are some questions for everyone who feels compelled to use non-conforming equipment and/or ignore the rules of golf during your round: Why are you so insistent in cheating when playing golf? Do you have an inherent belief that the rules apply to everyone else but yourself? What do you hope to gain by cheating?
10/10/10
 
MiddleAgedGuy says:
A question for you Shane... Millions of people don't conform to the rules, whether rolling the ball, non-conforming equipment, mulligans, etc. Why does that bother you so much? For all of your whining, you will never be able to change that. Yet here you are lashing out at random anonymous strangers, even using such language as "lazy, or just incapable of learning" ? What is it about your real life that compells you to lash out here?
10/10/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
Group
You're not going to convince Shane to believe anything but him, of anything. and has already condemned every golfer not as 'superior' as he seems to brag about as having no morals, {The reason for my original comeback posted] so it truly shows how narcissistic a person he really is. I’m big enough to admit that BirdieX clarified the ‘advice’ rule [8-1], which I’d misinterpreted – difference is BirdieX explained it. I don’t know Birdie, but have at least seen him offer comments of help and clarifications to folks, which seem to be what the Oob community is about. Shane is probably the guy on the course that can be overheard ripping on the ‘learning players’ and weekend-hacks, but really not offering any assistance but a cut-down behind their backs.

BTW – my ‘non-conforming’ wedges are circa 2008 U-grooves, and according to USGA rules are still allowable for amateurs like me to play.
Have a great day on the course Oobers!
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
@ middleagedguy - it's not whining/lashing out, it's called dialog. You and others still haven't answered the question on why is it so important to cheat? The mere fact that you and others aren't defending cheating leads me to conclude that there is no defense for it. Instead, it's a reflection of what the US has become over the years. Why bother following the rules if something is too difficult or you lack the skill/patience to learn? It's easier to cheat, make excuses as to why you're "not cheating," and then feel good about yourself because it took you 9 strokes "to card a 4" on a par-3. You can cheat all you want, but if you're playing a round with me or posting your score at my course, then I'm going to call you out as a cheat and challenge your handicap, which is the point of peer review. Integrity in golf is not dead.
10/10/10
 
MiddleAgedGuy says:
Shane-- "dialog" is a two-way conversation, not the one-sided diatribes you have been issuing. But your logic is flawed. Ignoring your questions does not imply the indefensibility of--or support for--nonconforming golf. It might just mean people are ignoring *you*.
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
lcgolfer64 - you're absolutely correct...you are not going to convince me that I shouldn't play in accordance with the rules of golf during a stipulated round. Unfortunately, you fail to understand that not every round of golf is a stipulated round. I play many charity events that use "captain's choice" format, which is not a stipulated round because you do not play your own ball as it lies. The difference is that I don't post my score at my home course for handicap purposes because that round wasn't conducted in accordance with the rules of golf. Furthermore, if it's a stipulated round, then yes, I don't provide advice to fellow playing companions as it is against the rules. However, if it isn't a stipulated round and if advice is asked, then I'm happy to provide it. However, I don't offer advice when none is sought because that's rather rude. Finally, I don't cut people down based on their ability to play the game...only their lack of integrity if caught cheating.
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
You're right MiddleAgedGuy, posting, reposting based on other people's comments/questions, posting again based on their commentary wouldn't count as "dialog" in a written environment. Not sure what would if that's not the case....guess we're really not having a conversation now....
10/10/10
 
onedollarwed says:
One of the great gifts golf has to offer is humility. Another of it's great gifts is rewarding honesty. When you're out on your own and stinking it up, it takes some practice to keep and honest score - mostly because your friends and family spent years giving you all the breaks so they could get them too. Keeping a handicap should give everyone the incentive to penalize themselves appropriately and thus reap the rewards due them for bad shots and worse decisions. However, we're also rewarded because we can the learn from our mistakes and show marked improvement. From my own experience, there is no greater reward than playing the game straight up with honesty and integrity. Also, you won't look stupid and outclassed when playing under scrutiny and with others who play and score correctly.
10/10/10
 
onedollarwed says:
That being said (and that did sound a little preachy, right?), I deviate from the rules out of necessity. But if you do it consistently, you can reap most of the above rewards. Example, I won't hit a shot where I'm going to break a club or damage it permanently. My MP60's are too pricey to replace right now - they're pretty, too! Also, as we've discussed many times, you get in these situations that can't be resolved in any reasonable fashion - surprise lost ball, unforseen hazard, unforseen OB, misrtake wrong ball, stolen ball, things like that. These events add up to maybe a stroke one way or the other every few rounds or so. Also, if you're playing match play, you can just forfeit the hole if you get into nebulous territory.
10/10/10
 
onedollarwed says:
So, as this relates to the new groove rules... I think most of us couldn't notice the difference, or take advantage of old grooves. We'd get more chage in trying a different ball or a new club vs. our old dirty wedges with slick grips. Sometimes a guy tells you he's playing with an illegal driver and can't keep it out of the woods. It could be cheating, but he duck-hooks it into the gorse anyway. I'll play with whatever combination of new/ used clubs I think will work best. I don't think I can take advantage of illegal grooves anyway. I wouldn't buy anything knowing it wasn't conforming. I wouldn't be in the "market" then for "hot gear." I enhance my performance currently with learning (reading, oobing, talking to people, practice if I can get it, teaching, trial and error), a good meal before a round, coffee, water, protein snacks, and better decisions. As for pros... I want them to carry their own bags, play in unprepped sand, no help from caddies/ gps/ only basic yardage books, etc.
10/10/10
 
onedollarwed says:
Do pros have their equip. checked before and after rounds for conformity, a la NASCAR?
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
So, I took advice from the Oober community (namely MiddleAgedGuy, lcgolfer64, BigDoctorJ, etc) on "what's the big deal with cheating?" and shot my lowest score ever this afternoon, a 54....birdied every hole!!!!! Granted, I took several mulligans on nearly every hole...mostly in putting...it's a great feeling sinking a 30-footer on your third/fourth try. Also, there was a bunker shot where I removed the ball from the sand and placed it on the fairway. Thus, I owe every Oober member who supports cheating an apology, cheating is definitely the only way to play golf! Now, I just need to get my hands on some illegal golf balls so I can hit monster 400 yard drives. Of course, it'll be my third shot from the tee, but it'll only count as one on the score card!!!! ;)
10/10/10
 
wedgeguy says:
Wow, guys! I take a weekend away from the computer and missed a lot. Let me offer a couple of takes. First of all, the concept of "conforming" or not is confusing. The USGA publishes a list of "conforming" equipment they have reviewed and tested, but do not represent that these are the only conforming clubs. Simple ommission from the list does not make a club non-conforming. EIDOLON works very closely with the USGA and received approval for our wedges long ago -- I do not know why they do not appear on the list -- I'll check that out this week.
10/10/10
 
wedgeguy says:
Secondly, "the rules". This game is supposed to be fun, and most golfers take some "liberties" outside of competition. If that is the way you want to play, fine. If you want to follow the letter of the rules to the finest detail, that's fine, too. The key is to enjoy the game. That's my .02 anyway.
10/10/10
 
wedgeguy says:
Finally, (1) Shane, I've written you a personal email about your EIDOLON wedge; please accept my apology that your notification email apparently wasn't delivered. and (2)As for the "marketing slant", I think a careful review of the 300+ columns I've written here would find that few "pitch" the EIDOLON brand. I -- and thousands of our owners -- do believe we make the finest wedges in the game, but I'll try to make sure that this does not affect my writing more than a little, OK? ;-)
10/10/10
 
wedgeguy says:
Oh, and one more thing, Guys. I love that you interact with each other and me on this forum, but can we please not get into back-and-forth dialog of a personal nature? Opinions and beliefs are great, and we all want to share ours with each other, but they can really only be judged by the person who has them. If you think it (whatever "it" is) is OK, and it caused no harm, then get after it!
10/10/10
 
windowsurfer says:
It's interesting to me that I can take my legal wedges and by cleaning them too rigorously cause the grooves to be non-conforming. (Per a post by TWG a few columns back.) And yet neither me nor my Club Captain could readily inspect my clubs and categorically identify them as legal or non-conforming. Or do (should) courses typically keep a measuring device on hand that can check this?
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
WG - thanks for clarifying the conformance issue regarding Eidolon's wedges. I figured the error was probably with the USGA's web site when they revised it for 2010 groove compliance, but it's incumbent upon the player to ensure they are playing with legal equipment. Unfortunately, their omission only hurts your (potential) sales if people use their database to check that your products conform under the Rules of Golf. Also, I didn't have a problem with your marketing slant...if you have a great product, there's nothing wrong with telling folks about it. I look forward to putting your wedge through the paces during the off season.
10/10/10
 
Trav says:
I thought there was tour pro using Eidolon wedges. If so, how could the clubs be non-comforming without him being DQ'd every round?
10/10/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
"This game is supposed to be fun, and most golfers take some "liberties" outside of competition. If that is the way you want to play, fine. If you want to follow the letter of the rules to the finest detail, that's fine, too. The key is to enjoy the game. That's my .02 anyway."
[pretty sure that's what I was saying as well]

Don't worry Terry, Shane won't declare you 'cheating on your Wife and Taxes' until after you shipped the wedge... ;)
10/10/10
 
windowsurfer says:
On one$weds NASCAR ques, i found this for width + separation: www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-on-Clubs-and-Balls Sheesh! I expect this applies to pro play, top amateur and club level of play equally. Holy thousandth-of-an-inch, Batman.
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
No lcgolfer64, I think I wrote that I should go ahead and cheat on my wife and taxes....I never accused other people of doing that. However, I understand that reading for comprehension can be difficult for some, especially when it comes to the Rules of Golf..... ;)
10/10/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
@Shane
Frome my post on Friday]
"lcgolfer64 says:
Thanks Banker, again I'm not saying that cheating is okay.
I've called penalties on myself on several occasions this summer while playing casual rounds with friend and pick-up games at the course."

Reading comprehension... Pot, meet Kettle...
10/10/10
 
Shane1 says:
Windowsurfer, what do you use to clean your grooves, a towel and water, nylon brush, a metal (brass) brush, or do you use a groove sharpener?

There's always Rule 4-1b: A club that conforms with the Rules when new is deemed to conform after wear through normal use. Any part of a club that has been purposely altered is regarded as new and must, in its altered stated, conform with the Rules.

Normal cleaning shouldn't constitute "purposely altered" unless using a re-groover....
10/10/10
 
windowsurfer says:
Shane1: I ream the crap out of them.
10/10/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
@windowsurfer
Thanks for lightening the mood - that made me laugh out loud! =)
10/10/10
 
lcgolfer64 says:
[Shane1 says:
No lcgolfer64, I think I wrote that I should go ahead and cheat on my wife and taxes....I never accused other people of doing that. However, I understand that reading for comprehension can be difficult for some]

Wait?.. I'm confused - You mean I can't jump to my own conclusions like you did with me and others (you so aptly named above) stating that 'Yeah, you're right. We should just all cheat when playing golf.... ' ???

I thought judging others you don't know and jumping to my own conclusions was perfectly fine to do so in "The World According to Shane."

I'm done on this thread, moving on...
10/11/10
 
AH50 says:
AH50 says:
To TWG, thanks for the clarification. We ALL now can 'sleep' & play better with your wedges. Yes, do get the Authority to sort out your approved clubs and have in posted. Maybe get an 'apology' from them for the delay. BTW, are you going the same way like Feel? There is another 14 years to go.
10/11/10
 
zeg says:
@Shane1: I don't think "absolutely false" is correct here, since what I said is true. The site you linked is not part of the Rules of Golf. The Rules of Golf "absolutely" do not require that your equipment be on the USGA list of tested, conforming equipment, though if you can point me to such a requirement I'll concede the point.

What you've linked to is a requirement for the *manufacturer* to abide if it wants the USGA to allow it to use its trademarks (or so I assume, because that's the only possible way the USGA can have any control over these claims). The only requirement the player is subject to that I'm aware of is "The player's clubs must conform with this Rule and the provisions, specifications and interpretations set forth in Appendix II." (4-1a) If a manufacturer chose to ignore the USGA's instructions that you linked to, and if their clubs did in fact meet the requirements, I don't see any rule that would penalize the player.
10/11/10
 
falcon50driver says:
wow
10/11/10
 
AH50 says:
AH50 says:
To TWG. re the above '...another 14 years to go', do let us know if Eidolon is going along with FEEL to continue with 'non-conforming' wedges commencing 01/01/2011 ? I think it shall give the Governing Bodies some 'food for thought'. Who knows, it may snowball to other club makers.

On another note, this TWG article and 'Blades vs Cavity Backs' generates so much interest. Coming from your goodself, am wondering if Eidolon should introduce the "Scoring Irons aka #8 & #9 irons to compliment the wedges. That will be 6 great scoring clubs in the bag coming from Eidolon...about 43% !!! The big guns 'encroached' into the wedge by loft, how about your Company 'moving up into the irons' with THE SCORING IRONS ?
And who knows, Eidolon users may be the 1st to buy.

Sorry mates, for going out of the topics.
10/11/10
 
Shane1 says:
Zeg - Eidolon states on their web site that their wedges conform to the rules of golf, both "new" and "old" wedges. The only way a manufacture can make that claim is if they have been tested and approved by the USGA. Since Eidolon's information wasn't contained in the USGA's web site for the 2010 groove database, I was seeking information from TWG on his timeline for submitting their new grooves for testing in order to obtain a determination that allows them to claim their products conform to the rules of golf. Or, if the USGA dropped the ball and omitted Eidolon's information from their database. According to TWG, it appears that the latter is the case. My concern is that I didn't want to spend $$ in new wedges if there was the potential of them being non-conforming....no point in developing touch and feel with a club I can't use in a stipulated round. My question was directed more at the manufacturer's claim.
10/11/10
 
Shane1 says:
AH50 - Actually, I was wondering the same thing, i.e. if Eidolon had any plans in producing irons/sets, or if they'll continue just focusing on wedges only..... or, if they planned on offering forged wedges to complement their current product line....
10/11/10
 
BigDoctorJ says:
wow Shane, you have obviously put WAY more thought into this than I did. Yes, I am a hacker, and no I don't submit scores to establish a handicap. It's not that I am lazy, well maybe a little, it is more that golf is a very challenging sport and that unfortunately has a negative impact on it. If golf were less concerned with groove rules that obviously don't even make a difference and more concerned with getting more people involved we wouldn't have to worry about the future of this game. And really, how is it cheating using a wedge that was 'approved' for who knows how long and now all of the sudden it isn't conforming? Because the USGA wanted to make it harder for pros to get up and down from the rough?
10/12/10
 
BigDoctorJ says:
And to your Basketball analogy: that is just plain retarded. Your comparison doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking about taking 3 mulligans and then writing down a par. Or hitting in the water and not giving a penalty. That would be a waste of time. I am talking about using a wedge that was approved for years and years and all of the scores posted with those wedges are still considered legit right? Shane, maybe you should spend less time flapping your gums (or fingers) and more time studying why you're such a douche bag.
10/12/10
 
wedgeguy says:
Hey Guys, more good stuff. Regarding the conformity of EIDOLON wedges, I have a file of letters from them notifying me that our submitted samples do conform, so I don't know why they are not on the list. I'll talk to them to see what I can find out. But rest assured that we will always have conforming golf clubs. Now, whether or not we also choose to intentionally make non-conforming clubs is a topic that has been "on the table" for two years now, and our decision is still out. Time will tell. As for the other line expansion ideas that have been offered up here . . . I can't divulge the 2011 product line as yet . . .
10/12/10
 
mjaber says:
@wedgeguy... Come on :) The auto companies tell us what their next year line is in March. Christams decorations are going up in the malls soon. I promise we won't tell anyone else. :)
10/12/10
 
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Terry Koehler is "The Wedge Guy" and President of SCOR Golf- The Short Game Company.

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