I guess my point is that if you assumed a drive 225-250 in the fairway your handicap would drop significantly.
My last round was a good example.I had playable drives on everyhole,but still played horrible because my drives were all under 200yds.Sure they were in the fairway but if i am 200yds out I need a wood to get there.I then mishit almost every wood shot and took penalty strokes on every one of those shots.
If you put me 250 off the tee even in the rough I will shave 15 shots everytime.

SteveMM wrote:

I then duffed a gap wedge from there, putting me about 60 yards away. From there, I overshot the green by about 15 feet. I chipped on and two-putted from there for a triple.

So, you still think it's your long game that is the problem? Judging from this "typical?" report, I don't think so. A gap wedge is fun to hit, but dangerous. Why a gapwedge? Why not hit a 9 to 3 pitching wedge? Perhaps a bit of course management might help... you're not a scratch-player, you're not even a bogey-player (yet). There is no reason to GIR that PAR4. Leaving 90 yards for your third shot isn't bad!

The short game is everything from 100 yards in. Also, two putts after a chip, that sounds all too familiar - if that happens a lot, your chipping needs work!

Most of us mid/high handicappers struggle with the same things. I'm not saying you cannot be an exception, but these are the things we all fight with: not very accurate on irons (and thus missing a lot of greens), followed by a poor chip.

To illustrate: on average I need 9 to 10 chips per round and 35 to 38 putts (meaning half the holes I need two putts after a chip). I've been working on chipping the last couple of weeks and things slowly improve. Still, it improves a lot faster and more reliable than hours of DR hitting irons.

Anyway, if anything, try to locate a good teaching pro. First lesson should not be driving range, but just play a "regular" round with him (9 holes should be enough). Don't tell him where you think the problem is, let him determine that on his own. Bring statistic information if you must, but don't draw your own conclusions. I bet you'll improve soon!

jev wrote:

So, you still think it's your long game that is the problem? Judging from this "typical?" report, I don't think so. A gap wedge is fun to hit, but dangerous. Why a gapwedge? Why not hit a 9 to 3 pitching wedge? Perhaps a bit of course management might help... you're not a scratch-player, you're not even a bogey-player (yet). There is no reason to GIR that PAR4. Leaving 90 yards for your third shot isn't bad!

Did you read the entire paragraph? I'm not sure why on Earth you're talking about me trying to GIR on a par 4. I hit a poor tee shot that ended up in some very thick rough about 240-250 yards from the hole. I did my best to get out of that high grass and down the fairway. I don't know about you, but when my ball is buried, it's hard for me to tell what kind of distance I'm going to get. I hit a six iron, but I lost about a club length off of it, which is typical I guess. My goal was to get the ball to around 100 yards so I can attempt to hit the green from there. Regarding the decision to use a gap wedge -- it's my 60-90 yard club, and most of the time it's a very good club for me at that distance. This particular time ... eh.

You'll have to explain, "Why not hit a 9 to 3 pitching wedge?" because I have no idea what you mean.

I have never said my short game doesn't need ANY work. However, my long game needs MORE work. I figure I have the short game of a 20-25 handicapper and the long game of a 30 handicapper. If you were me (sitting here with a pathetic 29 handicap) which would you be more worried about?

SteveMM wrote:

You'll have to explain, "Why not hit a 9 to 3 pitching wedge?" because I have no idea what you mean.

I know what he meant there, but I'm not sure why. The 9 to 3 pitching wedge is about a half swing (the nine o'clock to three o'clock position). But 90 yards is the distance for my shortest wedge, which would be a 56* lob wedge. And I would swing about 10 to 2 with it.

Werepuppie wrote:

I guess my point is that if you assumed a drive 225-250 in the fairway your handicap would drop significantly. My last round was a good example.I had playable drives on everyhole,but still played horrible because my drives were all under 200yds.Sure they were in the fairway but if i am 200yds out I need a wood to get there.I then mishit almost every wood shot and took penalty strokes on every one of those shots. If you put me 250 off the tee even in the rough I will shave 15 shots everytime.

Remember how I never used to even carry a fairway wood? I invested some money this year and got fitted for one that is easy to hit, the Ping K15. The result hasn't shown itself in my handicap at all, but it has shown itself in consistency. Plus, the game is more fun when I know that I can duff a drive and still have the ability to par a hole.

Bryan K wrote:

SteveMM wrote: You'll have to explain, "Why not hit a 9 to 3 pitching wedge?" because I have no idea what you mean. I know what he meant there, but I'm not sure why. The 9 to 3 pitching wedge is about a half swing (the nine o'clock to three o'clock position). But 90 yards is the distance for my shortest wedge, which would be a 56* lob wedge. And I would swing about 10 to 2 with it.

Ah ... so, it sounds like he's saying a half swing with a pitching wedge would be better than a more full swing with a gap wedge. I'd disagree on a normal hole (the whole "guessing how much to lay off" problem) but on this one I'd disagree even more. This particular hole I was playing has a 5-10 yard deep line of thick brush right before the green. This time of year, the brush grows so tall that it's hard to even see parts of the green. You can't hit a low approach to the green or you risk clipping something. Thus, my choice of a more full swing of a higher-lofted wedge.

I think it's silly to question club selection on a hole when you don't know the hole, but that's just me.

I know what Jev is saying though.
I was getting really good with my 64 and my 58, and I would hit full swing shots often.

But now, I only got full swing if there is a tree or something that requires it. Otherwise I go 9 to 3 with a higher club. I practiced it and know my shots pretty well and its left me a lot closer.

Steve, you're right, sometimes a hole calls for a certain shot, but in general, I might have a 90% chance of hitting a 9 to 3 compared to a 50% chance for a full swing on those high degree wedges.

I'd rather have a small miss on a half shot, then a skull on a full shot that leaves me 80 yards past the green

As for anything else in golf, practice, experiment, and see what works for you.
Thats why i love these forums, there is no right answer, and peoples ideas can help you find your answer.

gpickin wrote:

I know what Jev is saying though. I was getting really good with my 64 and my 58, and I would hit full swing shots often. But now, I only got full swing if there is a tree or something that requires it. Otherwise I go 9 to 3 with a higher club. I practiced it and know my shots pretty well and its left me a lot closer. Steve, you're right, sometimes a hole calls for a certain shot, but in general, I might have a 90% chance of hitting a 9 to 3 compared to a 50% chance for a full swing on those high degree wedges. I'd rather have a small miss on a half shot, then a skull on a full shot that leaves me 80 yards past the green As for anything else in golf, practice, experiment, and see what works for you. Thats why i love these forums, there is no right answer, and peoples ideas can help you find your answer.

It's certainly an interesting discussion. I was starting to get fairly good at the pitching wedge shot you were talking about, but then I started hitting a full swing on a gap wedge pretty well. I'd read (Wedge Guy, if I'm not mistaken) that you're better off with a full swing because that way you don't have to guess on how much backswing, etc.

My problem with the 9 to 3 swing you're talking about was always judging the roll after hitting the green. I had a lot of these types of approaches roll off the backside of the green, or at least end up 20 feet from the pin. That's another reason I started doing more of a full swing with the gap wedge -- it doesn't roll out as much.

As you said -- it's what's cool about golf, particularly with the short game -- there are usually 3-4 solutions and you just have to choose the best for you.

SteveMM wrote:

Did you read the entire paragraph? I'm not sure why on Earth you're talking about me trying to GIR on a par 4.

Yes, I did read the entire paragraph. Sure did mate! You also mentioned this hole as "it illustrates perfectly my [your] issues". You also mentioned your "biggest problems are from the tee to about 100 yards from the pin". But in this example, you hit 2 shots to get there and than another 5 to hole out. Seems to me the problems are inside 100 yard or was this not such a good example after all?

I didn't try to suggest you try to reach the green in 2, but I used it to illustrate a mindsetting (at least, I tried to - I obviously didn't get my point across in the forum). You could've hit a less risky shot there but chose a high-risk scoring shot instead. There can be many reasons why, but in general... If you don't question everything in a mishit like this, chances are you'll miss it again next time around.

Do I know better than the wedge guy? No, I certainly do not - I do listen to my own pro though that knows me and my abilities. Is a half swing always preferable to a high lofted wedge? Of course not! The choice between a lofted club and a partial swing is not a B/W decision.

Plus, do realize that the WG may be talking to a crowd that mainly consists of single-figure handicappers instead of weekend-warriors like us.

Quote:

Regarding the decision to use a gap wedge -- it's my 60-90 yard club, and most of the time it's a very good club for me at that distance. This particular time ... eh.

A gap wedge is a pretty dangerous tool - as nicely illustrated by your example. If one skulls it, it flies a long way over the green. A mishit on a half (or maybe 3/4) swing PW won't be that disastrous. That's simply defensively playing the percentages.

Quote:

If you were me (sitting here with a pathetic 29 handicap) which would you be more worried about?

I would ask myself if there would be a way to play it smarter. Bad shots happen to all of us (especially us, mid/high handicappers), it's the way one recovers from them that determines success or failure. You seem to be focusing on technique, but do you get the maximum out of your abilities now?

I agree jev.
Golf is interesting,
Its not how good your good shots are
...but how bad you bad shots are,
...and even more importantly, how good are your recoveries

I'm going to play today in 105+ degree weather... this will be interesting.
No golf this weekend so make the most of it today

jev - Thanks for your advice and suggestions about playing more defensively. I don't really feel like debating any longer about it. We could go on all day like this. I regret that I gave a pretty bad example of what goes wrong on my blowup holes.

Yesterday - I played a round after work, since this weekend is a no golf weekend. With it going to be 112+ I'm ok with that.

I shot 57% fairways - awesome for me
50% GIR - awesome for me
Shot 1 birdie
5 pars
7 bogeys
5 doubles

A deflating 88.
88 is good for me, but not with the driver and iron play yesterday.

why?
4 x 3 putts
4 hit trees
6 or more DUFFED wedges

Short game all just SUCKED all day.
If my short game was as good yesterday as it has been, I would have shot my best by a long long way.

Some bad lies maybe, but greenside in 2 on a par 5, 3 chips 2 putts for double is just BOLLOCKS, I dont care what your handicap is.

Frustrating.

nice round gavin. no trips or worse on your card. funny how even shooting a decent round, you dwell on the shots you left out there.

Yesterday I shot a 90 at Marine Park and today I am going to discuss what happened over the first three holes, easily the worst start I've ever had and possibly the worst I've ever seen.

As is the norm here the wind was blowing, but especially hard today. The first three holes are straight up wind, and long too--513, 447 and 465y. Acting all cavalier and not bothering to warm up my swing, I pop sliced my first shot into some trouble and then took on a too difficult shot to try and recover. It failed completely and two shots into the round I'm already feeling very out of sorts. The wind blasting in my face only magnified the discomfort over the ball.

The next shot and several after that ended up in compromising spots--weird lies, rocky lies, awkward stances. I was dying at this point just for the chance to hit a stock shot, to get myself settled, but it just wouldn't come. The ball kept trying to escape me and seek out bad spots. After two holes and six over par it already felt like a living nightmare. Then I came to the third hole which is one of the hardest in all the greater New York area--a narrow sliver of fairway flanked by fescue and thickets, all upwind, completely exposed to the breeze off the Atlantic; its also full of awkward bumpy lies and leads up to a tiny uninviting green.

Hunching forward into the wind, I chop my way toward the green, keeping it in play at least. I watch as a pigeon tries in vain to eat a rather big live crab, right in the middle of the fairway. A weird dream. For my fourth shot I hit a 59y sw. It was well struck, a little long, but as it flew in the air I felt relief--ok, maybe I can make six here, turn around, head upwind and end this nightmare.

The ball touched down and took a superball bounce fifteen feet in the air and beyond the green, into the native bushes, dead out of play--a steel sprinkler head. Looked like a dead center hit. I don't say that much is unfair in this game, but that flat out sucked, I didn't deserve it.

Double bogey, a quad, a quint to start the round. That is an abysmal start no matter what your level. To make matters worse my friend Dr T and I were in an 18 hole stroke play match, and he breezes through there in even par. However he was visibly shaken by my horror show. I put on a brave face, reassured him that it was okay and we should just carry on like nothing happened.

And I did. Even though I ended up getting dusted by nine shots, I actually shot lower over the remaining fifteen holes and trimmed down an eleven shot deficit. Actually had some fun playing never-give-up golf, trying to claw my way out of hell and back to respectability and left the course feeling decent about my game, probably the most satisfying 90 I've ever shot.

Duke of Hazards wrote:

nice round gavin. no trips or worse on your card. funny how even shooting a decent round, you dwell on the shots you left out there.

Yeah, the putting wasn't so bad... but the chips, drive me crazy, when it takes 3 chips to make it onto the green... infuriating. Especially when i still 2 putt after 3 miserable chips lol.

I guess I just have high standards, and low execution